MATT'S CINEMA DIARY: Nov 9-15, 2015

Matt Micucci's personal experience at various screenings throughout the week. Less about the film, more about the personal experience. This week, lots of screenings from the 60th CORK FILM FESTIVAL - SIMSHAR, THE CLUB, THE LESSON, WANJA, NINA FOREVER, AFTER THE DANCE, MEDITERRANEA, WINTER GUEST, LIFE IS SACRED, DEAD WHEN I GOT HERE, DEARGDHUIL: ANATOMY OF PASSION, COUPLE IN A HOLE, NAME YOUR POISON, FADING AWAY, BIZARRE, WILDLIKE.

November 9

SIMSHAR by Rebecca Cremona @ Gate Cinema (Cork, Ireland), 13:30 (Cork Film Festival)

The first ever full independent production from Malta is a rather tame take on the theme of immigration. SIMSHAR, however, was greeted with great applause, while I founds it dull for the most part because of its unpredictability. 

To be honest, there's not much to decalare about this screening, I can hardly recall whether anything major happened. Probably a sign that if I want to make this a regular feature, I might want to start taking notes to see if anything happens during the screening. But wouldn't it be incredibly ironic to take notes on the screeening itself rather than the film? I remember when I first started writing reviews for FILM IRELAND, I was taking notes, and then I realized that I was spoiling some of the fun of actually watching the film by doing that. 

Also, if people feel that the glare of the phones is annoying, then why is it right for a film journalist to have one of those pens that light up, just so they can jot something down for what will only fully be read by ten people at most on their insignificant little blog? So yes, I have just decieded that whenever the screenings aren't exciting, I will just turn the reports into full rants about things that come to my mind. 

Oh...I do remember being pretty annoyed by the fact that the producer wasn't at the screening, and I meant to interview her. But I guess I was better off, given the fact that it really was as bland a film as they come. It's not enough for a film to be powerful simply because it carries a powerful message. If it was that simple, then everyone would make films about social plagues and human rights issues all the time. But then INDIEWIRE might not exist (you see, the rant never really ended).

THE CLUB (El Club) by Pablo Larrain @ Gate Cinema (Cork, Ireland), 21.45 (Cork Film Festival)

After a conversation with Hamid, manager of the hostel in which I was staying, KINLAY HOUSE in CORK, who is a film buff himself, he told me that he would also be going to see PABLO LARRAIN's film THE CLUB. Which, by the way, as I said in my review of the film, is like FATHER TED, but very, very dark. 

Anyways, this is a film that has been making the festival rounds to great success, but it embarrassed me that i had never seen any film by the director. So, after the chat, Hamid really made me want to sort that out. So, would you believe it, I took off that afternoon from the festival itself, and watched TONY MANERO and NO. Both were great, and very different, and so it is no coincidence that THE CLUB also was different. 

When I first started reporting from different festivals, I actually used to make a list of films I would watch and then try to research on the filmmakers themselves. When I started working for FRED FILM RADIO, I mostly stopped, especially for the festivals in which I don't have to coordinate my own interviews. But that was before the festival would start, I actually never did it while the festival was taking place or for a film I would not be doing an interview for. 

But that goes to show, man...I love cinema. I love the way cinema is part of my daily life. And now, in just one day, I discovered a filmmaker who I am sure I will be very interested in for the rest of my life because, THE CLUB is indeed a great film.

November 10

THE LESSON (Urok) by Kristina Grozeva, Petar Valchanov @ Gate Cinema, (Cork, Ireland), 18:15 (Cork Film Festival)

This was one of the LUX PRIZE films screening at the CORK FILM FESTIVAL. The LUX PRIZE is a prize that has been instituted by the European Parliament in order to shine a light on European cinema but also promote European films that carry a significant message. This is an invaluable prize, not only because it is politics taking time to give some attention to cinema and culture in general, but also promoting the idea that cinema is not only something that is pretty, and exists away from the usual multiplex experience that most people associate with films, and that, let's face it, sucks and is essentially what is killing cinematic culture. 

Anyways, for this film, I was aware of the fact that I needed to send live tweets, but my camera wouldn't work on my phone with the Irish SIM card, and also there was no WiFi. So, I felt guilty, as I had been contacted by the people of the LUX PRIZE, who had asked me to do some tweets and promotion for them. But, alas, it didn't work out for this particular screening, and my concern with the Tweeting was incredibly distracting. 

I am the type of guy who puts his phone as far away as possible from him when I watch a film at the cinema - I literally have no time for it, as it spoils my immersive experience. So, even though there was no way I would Tweet during the film, I was annoyed at technology getting in my way, as I also mostly have no time for technology, although I envy people who know how to use it. 

But let's go...the film itself was incredible. This is the first film of the finalists for the LUX PRIZE award that I actually watched and it was fantastic, intense and driven by one of the best performances by an actress I have seen all year. In fact, the film reminded me of something by the DARDENNE BROTHERS, and if MARGITA GOSHEVA doesn't get nominated for an OSCAR, it makes no sense, as her performance manages to top the incredible performance by MARION COTILLARD in TWO DAYS, ONE NIGHT from last year. 

So far, I think, THE LESSON by VALCHANOV and GROZEVA is my pick for the awards. Because I have seen MEDITERRANEA now also, but have yet to see MUSTANG.

WANJA by Carolina Hellsgard @ Gate Cinema, (Cork, Ireland), 21:00 (Cork Film Festival)

This is one of those screenings I picked simply for the fact that the director was attending. I disregarded completely my idea of turning into programmer and watching some Irish short films at the CORK FILM FESTIVAL in order to come up with a programme to bring to PRAGUE with me. And the screening of WANJA was opposing one of the Irish short film programmes. 

Nevertheless, this ended up being one of the highlights of the fest for me. CAROLINA HELLSGARD was in attendance, and I got to interview her afterwards. Unfortunately, she had to leave early the following morning, so she did not follow me to the TRISKEL CHRISTCHURCH, which was also the so called festival club. But it was still nice to have that brief encounter. As far as the film is concerned, it is a solid and intense powerful portrayal of a female character. 

HELLSGARD told me that it was the actress herself, ANNE RATTE-POLLE, that came up with the idea of turning her caracter into a masculine one. To me that makes all the differene. She said that she shaped it around ALAIN DELON, for instance, but actually, I kept thinking that her performance and even her physicality reminded me a lot of JODIE FOSTER, an actress that is shamefully underutilized but I actually really enjoy watching, so the comparison is definitely a compliment.

NINA FOREVER by Ben Blaine and Chris Blaine @ Triskel Christchurch (Cork, Ireland), 23:45 (Cork Film Festival)

The TRISKEL CHRISTCHURCH is definitely one of my favourite cinemas in the world. It is a dissacrated Church that has been turned into a cultural centre, and I just love the way that cinema is one of its main features. I actually know the cinema programmer. CHRIS O'NEILL is a man with an incredible knowledge of cinema, and I always get a kick out of seeing the great programmes he comes up with, even when I am nowhere near Ireland. I always say that if I were to live in Cork, which would probably happen if I still freelanced and decided to move to Ireland a lot sooner than moving to Dublin, I would be in the CHRISTCHURCH every day. 

Also, shamefully, the TRISKEL is pretty much the only arthouse cinema outside of Dublin in Ireland. That makes me think that perhaps I should more actively get involved in promoting cinematic culture in Ireland somehow, somewhere. But I just don't see how. 

Likewise, I don't understand how a city like Galway, the city where I spent most on my life and consider my home, can be named a UNESCO CITY OF FILM and not have its arthouse cinema. There have been plans of opening one up for years, and now I heard it will finally open next summer, in time for the GALWAY FILM FLEADH. But I have been hearing this same story for years, and very much doubt it will happen. 

Oh yeah, NINA FOREVER. Good stuff. Sometimes it felt like a bit of a milked short film, but I guess it's still quite interesting. There's a lot of blood in it, and usually a lot of blood makes me feel weakish, but for some reason, not in this film. Maybe it was because of its blend of dark comedy and horror. Or the skill of the art direction that made the blood seem not so much repulsive as quite organic to the structure of the vision.

November 11

AFTER THE DANCE by Daisy Asquith @ Triskel Christchurch (Cork, Ireland), 15:30 (Cork Film Festival)

Today was my mother's birthday, so it was nice to see a film that essnetially told a personal family story. I got to the TRISKEL a little early and decided to get a cuppa coffee. At the bar was a woman with short shocking red hair, and while I liked her attitude, I didn't suspect that she might have been the director of the film I was about to see. 

The screening was very well attended. The TRISKEL is a big place, and to nearly pack it is quite a feat. AFTER THE DANCE is funny, sweet but also touches on some delicate subjects with great taste. I really enjoyed watching it, as did the audience. The film tells a personal story of her setting off on a journey with her mother, born out of wedlock in County Clare and adopted by a family of English Catholics, who in fact saved her. It's so strange to think what was scandalous in Ireland at the time. 

In fact, it's always so sad to think of the oppression that this country has had to endure, even up to not so long ago, at the hands of the English and the Catholic Church. And the thing was that for ages, you were either with one faction, or the other, and neither was all that idea. In light of this fact, I would almost go as far as to say that Ireland's suffering is widely underrated by humanity, and that I am very proud to have grown up in this country, more than I could ever be proud of my other nationality, the Italian one, which slightly embarasses me all too often. 

Anyways, got to meet ASQUITH after the screening, and interviewed her the following morning. Would love to have had a drink with her, but I must say that at this fest, I took it quite easy, to the point that I surprised myself. But I shouldn't be too surprised. 

MEDITERRANEA by Jonas Carpignano @ Triskel Christchurch, (Cork, Ireland), 18:00 [CORK FILM FESTIVAL]

This was the big one for the LUX PRIZE. A first time event organised by the LUX folks, this was a simultaneous screening of one of the three finalist films for the award. MEDITERRANEA by JONAS CARPIGNANO has been for many a highlight film of this whole year, so I was naturally looking forward to hearing it. At the same time, I wanted to do right by the LUX and not only promote the event, which would then be followed by a livestream of a Q and A session with CARPIGNANO himself from Brussels, in which people from 8 different European cities might get involved by sending Tweets, having just seen the film. 

I was encouraged by the LUX to send a few tweets, and I did just that at the start taking pictures of the beautiful TRISKEL venue. I was one of three people sending tweets from Cork, however. In fact, at the end of the film, I was the only member of the audience, despite being possibly the only international film reporter in Cork, to tweet, which tells you how shy people are...or how unfamiliar Irish people are with Twitter. Now, the other two people Tweeting from Cork were - the festival itself and an Irish representative of the European Parliament, who couldn't get her WiFi to work. Basically, if I had not been there, Cork might as well not have been part of the event. 

People did stay behind after the film, and everything ran smoothly despite the delicate nature of livestreams in general at events such as this. And the TRISKEL was packed full of people for the screening itself. 

MEDITERRANEA is a powerful film, but a slow starter that is almost completely stripped of any true cinematic appeal for the sake of representing the true drag of the dead end state of African migrants in Southern Italy. I don't want to get too into debating my views on the issue, that are by the way incredibly liberal - I'd love for all boarders to be completely knocked down and for everyone to be treated equally and any other argument is invalid by me. But in the end, what the film seemed to imply to me is that migrants should just stay at home, simply because the places where they are going are also in deep shit. 

As far as the LUX is concerned, and as I wait to watch the third finalist MUSTANG, THE LESSON for me deserves the award. But it's all too easy for me to predict that MEDITERRANEA will probably get it.

November 12

WINTER GUEST (Wintergast) by Andy Herzog and Matthias Guenter @ Gate Cinema (Cork, Ireland), 12:00 [CORK FILM FESTIVAL]

WINTER GUEST has, as one of its central plot points, hostels. So, there actually were people from Cork's hostel industry at it. I hope they had a chance to see that Swiss hostels are the bees' knees compared to the junk of the Emerald Isle in general. Still, they do tend to be much better than the London ones - sweet Jesus!!

Anyways, the film is a deadpan comedy that mixes realism with narration. In other words, its construction is reminescent of WIM WENDERS' road films. It is also interesting that the inspiration for the film would have come from the filmmakers GUENTER and HERZOG themselves, as the film is about a director who enjoyed some level of success with a short film, but never lived up to his expectations, unable to complete the script for his feature debut. 

The film has loads of creativity and only occasionally lacks any type of energy. But I really enjoyed it. And after the screening, I interviewed the directors who, as it turns out, were appropriately staying at a hostel. And surprise surprise, the very same hostel I was staying in before moving to an apartment a few days back - KINLAY HOUSE HOSTEL. Which, to be fair, is quite a good hostel. Hamid, the manager of the hostel I believe attended the screening too but I didn't get to meet him after it and ask him what he thought of the film. Perhaps I will send him an e-mail.

LIFE IS SACRED by Andreas Dalsgaard @ Gate Cinema (Cork, Ireland), 16:00 [CORK FILM FESTIVAL]

Half full screening of a documentary on ANTANAS MOCKUS, Columbian leftist activist with revolutionary non-violent ideas. An excellent doc really, directed by ANDREAS DALSGAARD and produced by the production house behind the works of such greats as JOSHUA OPPENHEIMER. 

Not much to declare about the screening - I couldn't stay at the q and a session after the film, as I had to rush off to a screening at the TRISKEL. But I did get to interview the Irish producer of the film, CONOR BARRY, the following morning. He turned out to be a delightful person. On top of being at CORK presenting LIFE IS SACRED, he had been here a few days ago presenting BRAND NEW-U, for which I interviewed the director SIMON PUMMELL. All my interviews from this year's CORK FILM FESTIVAL are of course up on the FRED FILM RADIO website for you to hear.

DEAD WHEN I GOT HERE by Mark Aitken @ Triskel Christchurch (Cork, Ireland), 18:00 [CORK FILM FESTIVAL]

Rushed to make the screening of DEAD WHEN I GOT HERE from GATE CINEMA. They're not too far apart, but I was really cutting it close. This film was the opening film of the CFF named ILLUMINATE and dedicated to raising awareness of mental health issues. And the screenings are then followed by debate sessions after the screening that are usually as long as the film itself. Which to me, as a cinephile, normally means that it prevents me from watching something from the next round of screenings, but as a journalist, I had to stay behind, as it would have been the easiest way to approach director MARK AITKEN for an interview - which I got the next day. 

Now, this was quite a popular screening, and I believe the reason why the ILLUMINATE screenings are so popular is because the CORK FILM FESTIVAL happens to take place around the same time as a convention somehow related to these themes and issues, and sees the city populated temporarily by experts and scolars in the field. So, the debate after the film was quite balanced between the film itself and the issues it portrayed. 

Now, the film is driven by a non-judgemental type of vibe that seems to be influenced by direct cinema, despite the narration of its leading character, the caretaker of a mental instutition in an empoverished and violent town of Mexico run by the patients themselves. It is a rather uncomfortable issue, but AITKEN chooses to praise the subjects he films by paying tribute to their surprisingly strong characters. The problem is that half of the audience saw this viewpoint as exploitation. 

Why? Very simple. 

When you have experts in the field watching a documentary about things they deal with on a day to day basis, you are definitely unlikely to find criticism of the film taking into consideration the viewpoint of the director. So, whatever was uncomfortable or hard to look at, for some was just unacceptable. They did not, of course, stop to think that whatever is uncomfortable, really is uncomfortable in real life. And that the film lacks sugar coating even though it is not meant to be an exposé. Anyways, this led to some open criticism of the film. I took a backseat and enjoyed hearing people go off on their tangent. Some people exaggerate. 

A woman, towards the end took the microphone and stuttered her way through some type of political speech. At a pacing of about ten words a minute, she bored the hell out of her incomprehensible argument, and kept going on and on. It was as if she didn't know how to end it, but really wanted to. Another woman got so angry at the film that she almost choked at one point - she was sitting on my same row of seats. 

I've gotta say that I find Q and A sessions boring and awkward for the most part. But when it's so heated like this one, it is rather enjoyable!

DEARGDHUIL: ANATOMY OF PASSION by Paula Kehoe @ Gate Cinema (Cork, Ireland), 17:45 [CORK FILM FESTIVAL]

DEARGDHUIL was easily one of the least remarkable films I watched during this year's CORK FILM FESTIVAL. To be honest, it was also one of the films I least looked forward to, but I decided to attend not only because the filmmaker and screenwriter would be in Cork, which presented interview opportunities, but also because I always have this thing about wanting to give exposure to Irish cinema. This film was also up against a screening fo GOOD GIRL, another film in the ILLUMINATE screening, and I guess in retrospect I may as well have gone to that. 

Anyways, DEARGDHUIL is a film about MAIRE MHAC AN TSAOI, an Irish language scholar, writer and poet who is highly praised. I like her poetry, it has a distinctive strong and physical female tone that is especially powerful considering the time in which it was written. But the documentary itself is tame, plain and hardly something that will expose this work to an audience that extends to people wo are not necessarily Irish language scholars themselves. 

In fact, and this is a bit in fact, I realised after the screening that all along, one of my former Irish teacher was sitting in front of me. By the way, Miss, you are responsible for largely making me dread Irish every single day, a subject that I might have enjoyed had you not been such an awful and passionless educator. But then again, I never in my life had teachers who influenced my passions in life, especially not in Irish, and to her credit, she wasn't even the worst one I had in that particular subject.

COUPLE IN A HOLE by Tom Geens @ Gate Cinema (Cork, Ireland), 20:45 [CORK FILM FESTIVAL]

DON O'MAHONY, in introducing the film, simply said "this film is...ehm...actually, I don't know." Then he turned to face TOM GEENS, who was in attendance and asked him whether he wanted to say something to introduce the film, but he didn't really. What followed was indeed one of the most exciting films I watched at this year's CORK FILM FESTIVAL, which is ironic given that I had just watched one of the most plain and dull ones earlier today. 

I too do not want to reveal too much about the film. Perhaps I can just introduce the set up - a man and a woman are living in the woods, wearing ordinary dirty clothes. They look rugged and rough, but not necessarily what you might expect out of people living this type of wild lifestyle. 

Essentially, this is a film that plays with people's conventional perception of films in general, and toys with narrative elements much like TARVOVSKY would have in a film like STALKER, where rocks aren't rocks, or are they and so on...

After the film I got to meet GEENS and we had a drink, talking about folks like PASOLINI, FASSBINDER and TARKOVSKY himself, which is what I always long to do at film fests. Truly enjoyable experience, meeting him was one of the treats of the festival. I also got to interview him the following morning at the METROPOLE HOTEL.

November 14

NAME YOUR POISON (Deoch an Dorais) by Paddy Hayes @ Gate Cinema (Cork, Ireland), 12:00 [CORK FILM FESTIVAL]

Given the underwelming experience at the screening of DEARGDHUIL yesterday, I wasn't expecting much from this, anothert bilingual documentary about I didn't evem know what. But actually, PADDY HAYES used the premise of an Irish immigrant in the Bronx, and alcoholic during the great depression whose death would have made a group of men welathy due to the insurance on his life they had taken on him, quite well. It in fact the story of a man who would essentially not die, and carries itself with good black comedy appeal. 

Anyways, yes the film was quite good, people enjoyed it and I got to meet HAYES right after the screening for an interview. Interesting to note that the film was screened after a short film, made in Irish, that was quite depressing in comparison about a mother and her autistic kid. Also, I have to say, that NAME YOUR POISON is one of the only films I watched at CORK that made me laugh openly. So many dramas, not enough comedies.

FADING AWAY by Edwin Casey, David Johnson and Lisa Winstanley @ Gate Cinema (Cork, Ireland), 20:45 [Cork Film Festival]

Every year at the CORK FILM FESTIVAL, I make sure to watch the FILMBASE film, which is basically a feature production by a group of film students. These productions are always fundamentally flawed. I never understand how there could possibly be THREE directors. There's bound to be clash of interests and style just due to this fact alone. And in fact, the films I watched that came out of filmbase were always, always, underwhelming for want of a better word. 

I watched this film with CHRIS O'NEILL and another filmmaker. I will not share with you what they thought of the film, or whether they thought it was good or bad. I will just share my own views and opinion. The film is widely inconsistent, but for some reason ends up being fun. Mostly because it's so bad, and wastes all of its potential so disastrously. People were laughing left and right - you could tell they were laughing at the ludicrousness of some moments of the film. I must admit that I did too. 

For instance, the film is about a bassist songwriter and apparently leader of a band, who steals someone else's songs, and would have gotten away with it too if it wasn't for the fact that eventually she has to play these songs live and is afraid that she will be caught. But...why, what, when. Anyways, one such moment where I could not help but laugh was just every moment a long haired dude playing a guitar, I believe right outside FILMBASE itself, acting like he is writing the same song over and over, and trying to seem like a charismatic musician who sold his soul to the devil. 

Literally, this screenplay could have been written by a teenage fan, fantasising about having a band and just putting some lesbian sex scene because, hey man, that's hot. The funny thing is that if the film had accepted the viewpoint of a teenage kid, then that would have made it a bizarre kind of awesome. But it reeks of seriousness. 

Ugh...I dunno FILMBASE. 

This is the last time I'm bothered with ya. It's heartbreaking to think that the guy who wrote the screenplay, VIKO NIKCI, is the first interview I ever did - three years ago at the GALWAY FILM FLEADH he presented his first feature documentary called COMING HOME, and I interviewed him for FILM IRELAND. The film was quite good, but I never heard anything about it since. Now, he is vomiting scripts for FILMBASE. Last year's I believe was written by GRAHAM what's his name, who directed the CALLBACK QUEEN, an awful romantic comedy that had been presented at the same edition of the FLEADH. 

You know what, the worst thing about the whole screening experience wasn't even part of the film itself. Some woman asked the filmmakers something about the music and then, trying to be cool added "and are you guys familiar with the story of ROBERT CARTER who sold his soul to the devil." Yup, Robert Carter. I get laid regularly, but stuff like this still bothers me as much as it did when I was 14.

BIZARRE by Etienne Faure @ Triskel Christchurch (Cork, Ireland), 23.45 [CORK FILM FESTIVAL]

I had spent the afternoon, before the screening of FADING AWAY, drinking at a sports pub and lovingly jotting down reviews and editing things for FRED FILM RADIO's website. After FADING AWAY, I had another drink, but was annoyed by the fact that they weren't going to my head, but to my stomach. Anyways, so I guess I was happy that I would be attending a late night screening before carrying on with the alcohol, and I was even happier to be watching a film called BIZARRE. 

CHRIS O'NEILL, who programmed the film for CFF, introduced me to the director and the producer. ETIENNE FAURE, the director, liked my PASOLINI tattoo and took a picture of it. The film is not really as "bizarre" as I hoped, but it is surprisingly sweet as well as being quite sexy. 

But my viewing experienced was completely ruined by a couple in their fifties, drinking and overreacting to the moments when the Burlesque dancers and colourful individuals do crazy stuff. Like one of them does the magic trick with the seemingly endless number of handkerchief is taken out of somewhere - that somewhere is her pussy. They also kept talking. They talked the whole time. And they weren't saying things particularly inherent to the film at all. At one point, the man said "and how is Mary doing these days?". Then, he said "jesus, I'm starving, where do you wanna go after this?". So, I turned, gave them bad looks and then actually said "are ya okay for drinks there, want me to get ya another one? Cup of tea?". They must have thought I was incredibly rude. 

Anyways, I met the ETIENNE and his producer STEPHANE the next day for an interview, and we had drinks together, on what was an incredibly wild night, the kind of night where you wake up in one place and don't even know where you are, how you got there, you just remember drinking lots, dancing and wanting to get naked along with everyone else, and you're not quite sure whether you did or didn't. 

November 15

WILDLIKE by Frank Hall Green @ Gate Cinema (Cork, Ireland), 13:30 [CORK FILM FESTIVAL]

And with this screening came an end to my 60th CORK FILM FESTIVAL experience, and finally, after more than an hour of impulsive writing, and end to what is easily my longest cinema diary since I have been doing them. I am currently stranded at CORK AIRPORT, and there is no telling when my flight to LONDON GATWICK will arrive, so it has kept me busy. But also, I need a cigeratte, so if my tone has been slightly more negative or angry than other ones, then you can bet it has something to do with my need for nicotine right now. 

Ok, so WILDLIKE was a film I chose thinking that I might be able to interview the director, but when I walked it slightly late, I walked in while an introduction by said director was on. So, he wouldn't be there. Looking at the screening schedule now, I am rather disappointed to find that the film screened at around the same time as OLDER THAN IRELAND, the documentary I mistakenly missed last week and was indeed one of the films that I was looking forward to seeing the most. But I would have probably been angrier had I not enjoyed WILDLIKE, I guess. 

The film was actually very enjoyable, in fact ending the festival experience on a high note. I sat near the front and must say that during this festival I have re-evaluated front row seats. 

That's it now, not much to declare for the screening. In order to make this feature a little more exciting in the future, I will try to jot stuff that might happen during the screenings. Thank you for reading, and thanks to the CORK FILM FESTIVAL for another excellent edition. Over and out.